This topic contains 18 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Micky 1 year, 2 months ago.

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  • #12030

    This topic shows comments from the Charging Basics page – add your message to the thread below.

  • #18178

    Tesla_Stu
    Participant

    When you quote “522 RAPID DC POINTS, 24 NOVEMBER 2014” I presume this is not 522 separate DC charging locations, more 522 outlets where there may be more than one individual outlet at each location? Correct?
    Regards,
    Stu

    • #18303

      Hi Stu,

      Correct. As you say “points” refers to each outlet, there could be multiple points per location. “Charging locations”, on the other hand, refers to the a place where charging points are available irrespective to how many connectors there are there. We distinguish between the two on both our home page and statistics page.

      Hope this clears things up.

      Ed (Zap-Map)

  • #19687

    Nico
    Participant

    Hi Edward,
    Probably a silly question but can you explain how the 22kW and 43kW charging works? I thought 3-phase meant 415V in the UK but 22kW at 32 amps implies 690V. Also, is it easy to find which electric car can actually handle 22 or 43 kW?

    thank you for the excellent website

    Nico

  • #19784

    Hi Nico,

    Ed passed this on to me – I’m no electrical engineer (started life as a physicist) but here’s my take on the figures:

    1. Three-phase AC typically delivered at 1-phase 230V or 3-phase 400V nominal voltages (Note that old UK figures were 240V and 415V respectively but these are now harmonised to EU standards).

    2. 3-phase AC Power (Watts) = 1.73 x Current (Amps) x Voltage (Volts) x Power Factor (Assumed 1 for purely resistive loads)

    3. Fast charging 3-phase AC unit delivering 32A at 400VAC: Power = 1.73 x 32 x 400 = 22kW approx.

    4. Rapid charging 3-phase AC unit delivering 63A at 400VAC: Power = 1.73 x 63 x 400 = 43kW approx.

    The key issue here is that each phase is delivered at a slightly different time delay – so its not each power phase x3 but the x1.73 factor which appears in the above equation.

    Re car selection – only the Zoe and Model S can accept 22kW AC as they have heavy duty on-board chargers (rectifiers) which convert the AC to DC for the batteries – these can accept 43kW or 120kW respectively. Before these models came along, the 3-phase 22kW charging points were intended for charging electric trucks and buses. How times have changed…!

    I hope I have answered your questions?

  • #19812

    Nico
    Participant

    Hi Ben,

    yes you have answered my questions, it makes sense now.
    This is surprising that a small car like the Zoe can handle the chargers designed for trucks and buses! I suppose it means all cars will do this in future.

    Thank you very much,
    Nico

  • #20857

    LoveEVs
    Participant

    Hi,

    I was thinking of purchasing a 3 phase type 2 cable for the Zoe 2013. Will that cable be compatible with 1 phase type 2 EVSE sockets? It seems like if they can get 22KW into a Renault Zoe, then the next generation will definitely have 3 phase charging as standard.

    Does anyone know if there is any disadvantage of getting a 3 phase cable instead of a 1 phase now? Are single phase cables OK to operate in a 3 phase EVSE?

    Richard

  • #23650

    Alkè
    Participant

    Hi,
    I just want to say: Great job! This is a wonderful guide to electric vehicles driver.It isn’t easy to learn at the begin but your summary it’s really helpful. Thank you!

    Alkè

  • #24813

    Tomohawk
    Participant

    Is the Type 2 connector the same as the Tesla connector?

    Therefore to use a 22kw charge I’ll need a Type2 to Type2 cable, 3 phase.

    If I have a tesla will I need the dual charger enabled?

  • #25337

    martinwinlow
    Participant

    Hi Richard,

    (Only just come upon your post…)

    1/ Yes, a 3 phase (3P) cable will still work on a single phase (1P) charge point (EVSE). It won’t connect (well, it’ll connect alright but it won’t work) to a tethered 43kW ‘rapid’ AC charger (eg ecotricty) but then you would not need it to normally as the tethered plug should plug directly into the car. But, if you are ‘ICE’ed’ then having a facility to still charge via an ‘extension lead’ might be considered an advantage. There is a way to fool the system such that this combination would work but you will need to research that yourself!

    Also, despite the Zoe being able to handle much higher AC power than that supplied by the smaller AC only EVSEs, the connecting cable plugs have coding resistors in them that dictate to the EVSE (and car in some cases) how much power the cable can take – the cable literally being the weakest link, thereby causing the EVSE to limit the output power ‘advertised’ to the EV, thereby avoiding over-working – and potentially dangerously over-heating – the cable.

    There are 2 disadvantages of buying a 3P cable to carry around in your car over a 1P one:-

    1/ Cost – typically at least 50% more than 1P cables of equivalent current capacity – there are 5 power (as opposed to much smaller ‘signal’) wires in the 3P cable and only 3 in the the 1P ones.
    2/ Bulk and weight – Thicker, stiffer cable and ~40% heavier…

    Tesla used to sell a very nice Type 2 to Type 2, 7m long, 32A, 3P cable for a very reasonable €190 but it is now €248… and the Euro is more expensive nowadays. You could buy one from my company of course… a 32A 5m one is £180 all in.

    Tesla (as usual) have engineered a very nice solution to AC charging (not to mention the amazing job they did adapting the standard Type 2 socket to their DC SuperCharging capabilities as well as standard Type 2 AC use) each 11kW charger unit, which are fitted under the rear seat and are either one or two in number, is about 600mm x 400mm x 100mm and must cost at least £500 a piece. OTH, the electronics required to charge from their DC SuperChargers (at nearly 3 times the power than from a 43kW AC rapid charger that the Zoe uses) would easily fit in a shoebox and cost very little.

    Not having to cart around a big AC charger is a real advantage. Renault tried to combine the charger and inverter (which is needed anyway in all EVs to control DC energy from the battery to drive the AC motor) with, I gather, limited success.

    MW
    EVBitz.uk

  • #26939

    Joe J
    Participant

    Hi there,
    Could you help me out with something…
    Can a BMW i8 or any non-rapid AC enabled car plug into a Rapid AC plug, and pull just 22kW? The only reason why I ask is because if, for example, I select the BMW i8 on the charge map vehicle selector, it doesn’t show the Ecotricity Electric Highway ones, that just have RAC and RDC plugs, and no purposeful FAC plug.

    Thanks!
    Joe

  • #27001

    martinwinlow
    Participant

    Hi Joe,

    Any EV with an on-board charger can utilise a 43kW, AC, 3 phase supply (such as the ‘AC rapids’ – principally Ecotricity ones – you refer to) but the Type 2 male plug that you use to connect to the normally tethered Type 2 female plug must be ‘modified’ by removing ~about 14mm from the end. This is never an ideal arrangement for various reasons and is, arguably, ‘not safe’…

    However, the EV will only charge at maximum rate its charger is capable of and in the case of the i8 I understand that is only 16A. Aside from this (and the fact that the i8 is a hybrid with a measly 20 miles of electric-only range) meaning that the notion of referring to an i8 as an EV is complete joke, it is also rather a waste of the rapid ‘charger’ – quotes because the charge point in the case of such a 43kW 3 phase unit is only supplying AC, the charger being in the car. Unfortunately, so many journ’os are so thick they can’t quite grasp the idea of a hybrid drive-train and keep on referring to hybrids as ‘EV’s. Rant over… and out. MW

    • #28263

      Squiggles
      Participant

      Hi Martin,

      “This is never an ideal arrangement for various reasons and is, arguably, ‘not safe’…”

      Why not?
      If an EV’s charger only pulls 16A, say, then that’s the max current and within the cable’s envelope regardless of what the PT puts out or am i missing something?

      Dennis

  • #28264

    martinwinlow
    Participant

    Hi Dennis,

    It doesn’t really have much to do with the electrical side of things.

    It is more do with the following:
    1/ Having to cut and finish the end of the Type 2 male plug
    2/ There is a slight reduction in the ability for a coupled T2 male and female plug to resist water penetration & thus, safety and contact ‘wear’. Also increases the possibility of a leak to earth which might be enough to trip the GFI circuit, stopping the charge.
    3/ There is no inherent means of locking the T2 M&F plugs together (can be over come by either sophisticated further modification to the T2 plugs or Heath Robinson approach ie some string) so it is possible for the charge to be interrupted accidentally or deliberately by the separation of said plugs. Note: This will not be ‘dangerous’ as the design of the T2 system prevents plasma arcs etc due to the copilot pin (CP) in the male plug being shorter than all the others. Thus when the T2M&F plugs are pulled apart, the CP pin disconnects momentarily before all the others and immediately and gracefully shuts down the charging current before the power contacts separate.
    4/ It looks… ‘inelegant’ and therefore appears badly engineered – T2 plugs are not intended to be used in this way.
    5/ There is a possibility of both plugs being damaged whilst on the ground especially from being run over.
    6/ The one significant electrical issue is the introduction of another set of contacts in the charging path. These should always be kept to a minimum due to wear in the contacts causing extra resistance which causes heating and an ultimately fatal (to the plugs) spiral.

    There may be other reasons!

    And what is a ‘PT’?

    MW

  • #29458

    New Leaf
    Participant

    I gather from the above that the 22kW chargers are 3-phase, but these show up on the map as compatible with my Leaf. Would I right in assuming that the leaf would only use 1 of the 3 phases and so it would be the same as connecting to a 7kW charger?

  • #29459

    martinwinlow
    Participant

    You are right. All public 22kW EVSEs that I know of are 3 phase, and even if they were single phase, your LEAF (unless modified) would only draw 7kW anyway as that is the max power of the on-board charger. Yes, on one phase only at 3P 22kW EVSE would supply 7kW – but you would need one of these to use it… http://www.evbitz.uk/EVBitz.uk/T2_T1_Cables_-_1P.html (middle of page:- ‘Type 2 to Type 1 Adapter’). I can’t help think that as the 3 phase plugs are Type 2 ones, they have been erroneously marked as compatible with LEAFs on ZM.

  • #29460

    New Leaf
    Participant

    Just noticed the typo! I gather that the Leaf comes with a suitable cable to connect to my home charger, and to public charging points with type 2 sockets, so if the 22kW devices have type 2 sockets then this cable should connect (the Leaf has a type 1 connector) with just 1 phase in use.

    As there are not many 22kW chargers in this area I don’t think that I need to worry over much!

    Just waiting now for a phone call to say that I can collect the new car.

  • #29464

    martinwinlow
    Participant

    Yes, but not ideal as the EVSE’s phases will not be ‘balanced’ and I have never heard a sensible response to the question of whether or not this is any sort of issue. OK in an emergency, I suppose…

  • #31033

    Micky
    Participant

    To LoveEV

    A 3 phase 32 amp cable will work fine on any single phase car and charger outlet. It simply means that two other wires are used in the cable and connected to otherwise unused pins in the plugs.

    The additional wires in a 32 amp 3 phase cable are 6mm and so the only disadvantage with a 3 phase cable is that the cable is very thick, heavy and difficult to bend and thus store. Plus it costs more!

    I have an i3 and use a 3 phase cable because the latest i3, as standard, charges at 11kw when connected to any standard 3 phase outlet and the cable works fine on all 3 and 7 kw public chargers.

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