This topic contains 17 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  jon 1 year, 9 months ago.

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  • #27707

    Following on from the recent announcement that Ecotricity has started charging for use of its rapid charger network, Zap-Map has taken a look at rapid
    [See the full post at: EV rapid charge cost comparison]

  • #27711

    Jolly Green John
    Participant

    I am very unamused to read you have to have both electricity and gas with Ecotricity to qualify for the 52 free charges. Having just switched to them to qualify for the free charges, I am one unhappy bunny, as they are slightly more expensive than my previous supplier. Are they just moving the goal posts, or is it all tucked away in terms and condtions. Thankfully there is no cost to switch again and go for the cheapest.

    Whilst the calculations on different EV costs are valid for what they are – assumptions noted – in reality how often does anyone turn up at a charge point empty. My usual routes require me to top up after about 50 miles, in order to then go on to my destinations. So I am charging from 40 to 80% in a 15 to 20 minute stop. At best I will get 12kWh for 30 minutes in this case, and that is then 50p per kWh. I think £2 per 10 minutes would have been a much more realistic way to charge for charge to allow for the fact not everyone is doing the electric equivalent of running on fumes.

    Hopefully in return for all the money they are going to be getting in, we will see more doubling and trippling up of charge points at busy locations.

  • #27713

    JimboJones
    Participant

    Honestly, you need to recalculate these figures as they are misleading when based on time. The last thing we need in the industry at the moment is misinformation. Speak to any owner of an EV who uses rapid chargers and they’ll tell you that your figures are grossly overestimated. There is plenty of information on EV forums that you can use, or I’d be happy to help.

    • #27716

      Jolly Green John
      Participant

      JimboJones

      I agree with your point. I think it is necessary to calculate for your car and how you use it. With a 24 kWh leaf, I checked exactly what I could charge in 30 minutes (before the pump was converted) and starting at 40% I got to 90%, so that presumably was exactly 12 KWh or 50 pence per kWh. And starting from around 20 I reached around 85, so 15.6 kWh or 38 p per kWh. To get 25 pence per kWh, I would have to go from 0 to 100 %, and that does not happen. My nearest Ecotricity pumps just got switched today. I don’t suppose I will use their pumps more than 52 times in a year, but not everybody wants to switch to ecotricity

  • #27714

    Micky
    Participant

    Why have you listed the BMWi3 as 33kwh?

    The very latest i3 – 94 is listed as 27.2KWH.

    Have you made a mistake or do you know something we do not?

  • #27715

    Jolly Green John
    Participant

    Answering my own question I found the following from ecotricity terms and conditions

    “Domestic Ecotricity Energy customers with a dual fuel account (or electricity only if you have no mains gas) (‘Energy Account’) will be entitled to a 100% discount on the Fee subject to our Fair Usage Policy (clause 13 below) (the ‘Free Usage’).”

    As we have no mains gas we should qualify for the free use – phew!

  • #27732

    Micky
    Participant

    If we assume that a £6 charge gets me a 60 mile range then Ecotricitys “free” 52 sessions equates to just 3120 miles per YEAR.

    Is that what Dale believes is the distance an electric car should travel each year?

    With EVs being sold by the thousand things are going to change rapidly over the next few years if not months.

    We all have the ability to charge at home at rates of less than 10p per kWh and with electric cars now getting actual ranges of 100 miles plus then there is less demand to use rip off pumps and car park charges.

    When we get Tesla type ranges of 200 miles plus then these £12 – £20 per hour pumps will become museum pieces.

    If the average ICE user had the ability to fill up with petrol from a tap at his home at 20p per litre then how long would garages charging 110p per litre last? They would have tumbleweed blowing through them within weeks!

    The fact we can charge at home is what is going to stop these blackmail merchants from succeeding. It is only lack of driving range forcing us into their clutches.

    I say bring on 200+mile range EVS asap.

    • #28130

      coolblue2000
      Participant

      Micky

      The issue with charging at home is that as the ranges (and hence batteries) become larger then the charge time will become more unreasonable. FOr instance the current 30kw leaf charges in about 5 hours on a fast home charger, however the new leaf which will be 60kw will obviously take more like 10 hours. This is not a reasonable charge time for most people so what we really need is a charging network modelled on petrol stations (in fact they could be at petrol stations!) then you turn up, plug into a high speed charger and drive off when charged. these should be charged by the kwh so you can fill up with what you need. the home charger can then be used to top it up.

      The government really need to mandate that all new homes are connected to 3 phase power so rapid chargers can be installed at home too.

  • #27737

    Jolly Green John
    Participant

    In 2015 some intrepid enthusiasts travelled from Lands end to John O’Groats and back in a Leaf, 1652 miles, all for free, charging 33 times (1). Today this would cost nearly £200, assuming all charging with Ecotricity for 30 minutes at a time – 33 x £6.00

    A decent Diesel car, assuming 60 mpg, and Diesel at £1.20 a litre, would cost around £150 for fuel to do the same trip, maybe a little higher if refuelling at Motorway Service areas

    As the Americans say, I did the math. This is not going to encourage people to do longer distances by BEV

    (1) https://www.zap-map.com/ev-enthusiasts-travel-from-john-ogroats-to-lands-end-in-nissan-leaf-ev/ last accessed 21/7/2106

  • #27785

    2EVs
    Participant

    I might be the only one here, but I think it is good to pay for the service although I would question the minimum amount when you might just want a quick top up to get home. If paying means we get a more reliable service and faster expansion then I am all for it. If it stops drivers hogging the charger for over an hour trying to get the last few drops of power in, then again I think that is a good point. To me, 30 mins gets me on my way and gives me enough time for an over priced coffee and a pee.

    I have been an Ecotricity customer for over 3 years now since I bought my Ampera and whilst you can save a bit of money switching your supplier every 12 months, I got fed up dealing with rubbish customer services. In addition to the free use of their network (up to 52 rapid charges per year) Ecotricity give you a £40/year discount on your electricity bill.

    Rather than seeing this as a negative ‘now we have to pay for it’ thing, why not look upon it as the first 52 charges per year are worth something like £300 discount for being an Ecotricity customer.

    I am not affiliated to Ecotricity (other than being a satisfied customer) and before anyone points out that my Ampera can’t be charged on a rapid charger, I know that, I also drive an eNV200 and love them both, hence my login name, 2EVs !

  • #27786

    Mark3012
    Participant

    Having had the shock of a £6 charge from Ecotricity when I used my charge your car card at the new Cobham services I have to say the article above sums up exactly why, if these companies are not very careful the whole EV ideal will come crashing down to the floor.

    I drive an Outlander PHEV, its a company car and I pay for my fuel and claim back the mileage. On 80% fast charge I will get maybe 20-25 miles at a push and I try to charge every 100 miles or so. £6 is hideous for this sort of mileage and I might as well just forget charging and just continue on petrol and sod the environment, because at this rate its cheaper to use petrol, I don’t have to stop for 20 minutes & I still get the same BIK. Win, win, win!

    Ecotricity are considerably more expensive for both electric and gas than my current provider and that’s even with the electric car discount and the best efforts of their website to tell me any different. It currently costs me around £1.25 to charge at home having paid for my own charge box using my current provider.

    The most I have been charged other than Ecotricity was £3.25 (rapid DC charge) from Chargepoint Genie in Cornwall as I refused to use the empty Ecotricity car charge points at the new Cornwall services out of principal. Where I normally work I have a charge your car point in the park and ride which costs me between £1.25-£1.50 (rapid DC charge). Unless charge your car, chargepoint genie and Pod are massively subsidised, I smell a big rat.

    I have even written to Ecotricity asking them to explain and justify the costs, but do you think I had anything back other than the automated acknowledgement?

    I don’t care what any one says Ecotricity are profiteering due to the locations of there charge points. They were either loosing a fortune before in which case it was a poor business model or they have become the same as motorway fuel stations (a rip-off) and that’s criminal with the number of people who have been convinced to change over to EV or full electric.

  • #27787

    Micky
    Participant

    I thought Mark3012 rant was hilarious.

    Mitsubishi drivers are the bane of my life. As a proper EV driver I have spent so many hours of my life waiting for Phev drivers to finish reading the red tops whilst genuine motorists who NEED to use the chargers are blocked by opportunists grabbing free electricity.

    A 10AH battery that only takes you 20 miles is disgusting and not environmentally friendly, but at a vehicle weight of over 1.85 tons what do you expect .

    What I found most amusing was you demanding that Ecotricity justify themselves to you!!

    Dale Vince does not have to justify himself to anyone, especially a phev user like you.

    He has done more to champion EV driving than anyone and has put his own personal money into his dream.

    Now he is putting charges on his pumps, and one of the main reasons is to STOP Mitsubishi Phev company car drivers like you profitering by using free electricity and claiming milage.Your comment about your BIK shows you are more interested in personal gain than the environment.

    Also it will stop taxi firms, delivery services and other high mileage businesses previously using his free electricity for the benefit of their own interests.

    For 4 years Ecotricity acted like a Charity now he is tailoring his business model to support true EV drivers, and stop being taken advantage of.

    I am delighted that you will never again block an Ecotricity charger, and I hope many more phev drivers act in the same way.

  • #27809

    frank
    Participant

    Strangely I have no issue for Highways to begin charging as I do agree with majority of Micky comments posted on 26 July. But I would argue that the charging scale should be on Kwh usage against the 30 minute flat rate. I travelled from London to Birmingham a common trip for some on 27 July and found that I only had few miles as a reserve. If I had done this trip in the winter months I believe I would have been on hard shoulder? That or deciding to charge twice. I am fortunate that I don’t do that journey often. Price will play an important role on trade as well as domestic users from switching to Ev’s vehicles only and as petrol/diesel prices are getting lower that is making the jump for some harder to accept. I assume the charge is all due to the government reducing the subsidy on renewable energy? on another note I am pleased that PHV users will pay to enter the congestion zone as they have benefited the most from there classification and they should be a distinction between the Ev’s and PHv’s.

  • #27810

    JimboJones
    Participant

    It can’t be purely kWh based as it would encourage hogging by vehicles which cannot be rapid charged. Time based charging is needed as rapid chargers are a rare resource at the moment and need to be quickly available when people arrive with rapid capable vehicles to charge. Charging by kWh would not stop PHEV users using them as you allude to above.

    I’d advocate more granular time based charging, maybe £3 for 15 minutes, or even £2 per 10 minutes and also the addition of 5 or 10 7kW/22kW fast chargers to service station car parks for vehicles which are slower to charge (or can only take a small amount of charge) for a lower fee.

  • #27821

    PowerEng
    Participant

    As a PHEV driver I have no issue with paying for using the Rapid Chargers providing the rate is equitable. I used the charger at Medway services last week during a business trip to give an EV range to use in the local town. I do think that Ecotricity have created a problem by using a flat charge for 30 minutes as some people may take the view that they have effectively entered into a contract for the 30 minutes and so will not be inclined to come back at twenty minutes. I had paid for ten minutes I didn’t need, but the ability to drive in the town emission free was important to me.
    I also used a similar charger the following day on the CyC network and the charging model was £3.50 for the first ten minutes and 25p a minute there after, so I only paid for the time I needed and was gone as soon as charged.
    I have never blocked the charger and I never will, but don’t tell me not use to use them. After all Ecotricity were very pleased to sign myself and all the other PHEV drivers to their system.

  • #27852

    Micky
    Participant

    Jimbo Jones is absolutely correct to say that there should be two types of pumps – High speed for EVs who need a real slug of electricity quickly and without queing.

    Plus a decent number of Type 2 connectors for users that only want a small amount of electricity. Being charged at a per Kwh basis.

    The Mitsubishi PHEV is an unusual animal in having a small battery but a Chadamo connector, most plug in hybrids only have a 16 A charge capability. For instance even the BMW i8 sports car only charges at 16A./3.5kw

    If Ecotricity did this they would not only make PHEV drivers happy but make more money for themselves plus help the electric vehicle bandwagon keep on rolling, win win for everyone.

  • #27920

    toad
    Participant

    I just have electricity only, Economy 7 with Ecotricity, I get the free charges. If you have a gas system, I think it reasonable for Ecotricity to expect you to have both services with them.

  • #29475

    jon
    Participant

    I came to this thread rather late on.
    First I am an Outlander owner. There is a very good reason I chose an Outlander in preference to a Leaf, BMW or Renault. I am disabled and use a wheelchir and/or scooter. For me to remain moblie I require a vehicle large enough to a. carry the aforementioned and b. be easily loadable. None of the aforementioned EVs fitted the bill, so, as I wanted to go electric , the only viable proposition was the Mitsubishi..
    To my bone of contention. All of us be we EV or PHEV owners/drivers get the vehicles intially for the reduction in emissions. We certainly don’t buy them because they’re cheaper intially. There are many comparable ICEs would do the job the Outlander does and at half the intial purchase price. It drives me nuts to see comments about Ecotricity deliberately pricing out PHEV owners and then being referred to as though I and my like are a sub human species. Do we really need to have this stupid type war? Ok you have a Leaf. Zoe or whatever and it does the job you want. I have no axe to grind with that scenario, so why does the opposite not apply? All charge point companies supplied charge points initially for all our benefits. If Ecotricity have suddenly got pious and anti PHEV it’s a poor sign for ALL of us, EV owners included.
    Thus far I’ve seen comments on the ZAP charger notes such as ” the cable was left dangling”, “The connector was on the floor”, “he’d left the car”, all followed by the same rider………”HE MUST BE A PHEV OWNER”. Oh yes? “He must be” tells me you’re guessing. You have no clue whether it was a Tesla, Outlander or Twizzy driver, but the EV snobbery shows through. I’ve had the Outlander for a year. I use several charge suppliers but mainly PodPoint and Polar Plus. I pays me money for he electricity I use, and take great umbrage at being referred to as some sort of neanderthal with a self only syndrome. Please allow me to elucidate. I have found connectors on the floor but three times in the year. Each of those times the vehicle leaving the chargepoint was a Leaf, yet I didnt; immediately decry all Leaf owners in my successful charge report. There are good and bad in every section of humanity. Paying £24k to a Nissan dealer doesn;t make one a freakin saint, and by the same token paying £35k to a Mitsubishi dealer doesn’t make me a better human being than a full EV owner.
    On the Ecotricity front I turned down Ecotricty’s great offer, as it would have INCREASED my electricity/gas bill by some £140 a year. I don;t decry them, after al what’s the point of being in business to make a whacking great loss. By the same token I’m not in the business of making a whacking great loss either, so I choose to remain where i am and , until now, say nowt.
    ALL electric vehicle owners, be they EV or PHEV are front runners in the world of emissions control………we should ALL act like ambassadors and not slag each other off, after all, we start the fighting routine it ain’t too long before the whole thing goes awry and the pirates and sharks really do start to take a bloody huge bite out of us whilst our attentions are elsewhere.

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